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Red_Lizard2
03-01-10, 04:32 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8542285.stm

Well its a protest over not giving communion to gays. In my opinion i disagree with the church not giving communion to gays, but at the same time, like with marriage, i don't think the church should be forced to accept gays or whoever. but thats just my views.

What do you think?

JBMCW2010
03-01-10, 04:56 AM
protesters like that aggravate me. it is one thing to stand in the street and then it is another to disrupt church. It is like WBC interrupting and protesting at funerals for fallen soldiers.

Or throwing ketchup on fur coats.

I am all for freedom of speech, freedom of expression but don't be rude or damage other's property.

hawgballs
03-01-10, 09:20 AM
Jesus loves everyone, everybody is welcome in god's house except for the gays. Because they lead a sinful life,............ ::) Isn't that why they have confession?

Rawr
03-01-10, 09:24 AM
Without trying to open a can of worms, but let a church have it's opinions.. but don't allow it to determine government policy on said topics.

Although as hawg said, this whole thing is a little backwards.

hawgballs
03-01-10, 09:35 AM
The thing is, it isn't the govt pushing this stuff on the church..... These protesters are members of the church(form what I understand) and I always remember that the "church" isn't the clergy or the brick walls and the steeples, but the people that make up the congregations........

Rawr
03-01-10, 09:40 AM
I was kinda working on a different tangent, but I didn't realize that this was part of the church members that did the protesting.

TehSpaz
03-01-10, 09:50 AM
frankly, I think it's wrong that they deny gay's communion, but it's within their right and freedom to do so.




The man at the centre of the row has said he just wants equal treatment - if he is regarded as a sinner, he wants the priest to refuse communion to all other sinners too.
Yes, and that's what confession is for. Other's who sin repent and ask forgiveness. The church believes you're living a life of pure sin by being homosexual, sin you are NOT asking to be forgiven. Frankly, if you want to openly recognize it as a "sin" like the lil quip I pulled from the article, that's even more right for the church to do what they want.




Oh, and before y'all jump on me as some overly religious bible thumper or whatever.....I'm not. I'm not even religious in the least. I just don't give a damned and respect the church's freedom.

hawgballs
03-01-10, 09:54 AM
I would assume they are church members. If not, then I don't see any reason for them to protest, basically the equivalent of me protesting tofu companies, because their tofu is white, and I as a meat eater want them to make red.....

Warprosper
03-01-10, 09:55 AM
I just don't give a damned and respect the church's freedom.


Or lack of

TehSpaz
03-01-10, 10:19 AM
I just don't give a damned and respect the church's freedom.


Or lack of



separation of church and state.....the church can do whatever the hell it wants. Government should not be able to force the church to do ANYTHING that violates the church belief. If a church believes that taking the body and blood of christ into the body of a non-repentant open sinner is wrong, than you shouldn't be able to force them to do so.

hawgballs
03-01-10, 10:32 AM
separation of church and state.....the church can do whatever the hell it wants. Government should not be able to force the church to do ANYTHING that violates the church belief. If a church believes that taking the body and blood of christ into the body of a non-repentant open sinner is wrong, than you shouldn't be able to force them to do so.
Where did anyone mention government? It doesn't state anything like that in the article. And I believe this occurred in 's-Hertogenbosch, Netherlands...... Unless there is a 's-Hertogenbosch in America of which we are unaware of..... And I don't know if Sep. of C&S is valid in the Netherlands.

Toker
03-01-10, 10:39 AM
Church can stay ignorant if they please. I wouldn't want to be a part of a discriminatory business like that. So, I'd take my business elsewhere...

hawgballs
03-01-10, 10:42 AM
But I do agree, no governments should be able dictate to "churches" as to what they ought to do, and vice-versa. But I do believe it's members ought to be able to show their displeasure any way they see fit. (as long as it doesn't intrude on someone's safety)

CivilWars
03-01-10, 10:43 AM
From the book I read, and I may be wrong, some guy that we are supposed to model our life after loved everyone who came to him, the sick, the whores, the thieves, BUT he also encouraged them NOT to continue to sin AFTER he first loved them. The main problem I see is most humans try the correction first, not the love.

hawgballs
03-01-10, 10:53 AM
From the book I read, and I may be wrong, some guy that we are supposed to model our life after loved everyone who came to him, the sick, the whores, the thieves, BUT he also encouraged them NOT to continue to sin AFTER he first loved them. The main problem I see is most humans try the correction first, not the love.
I can agree with this.

hawgballs
03-01-10, 10:54 AM
But furthermore, didn't that guy supposedly die for the "our" sins or for our being "born with original sin"? And considering the probability that it could be genetic and not a choice,.... Are they truly "living in sin"?

CivilWars
03-01-10, 10:59 AM
But furthermore, didn't that guy supposedly die for the "our" sins or for our being "born with original sin"? And considering the probability that it could be genetic and not a choice,.... Are they truly "living in sin"?


I guess that depends on whether you believe we have a choice to overcome our natural tendencies, or if we are no better than animals, and just get by on urges. I often have the animal desire to go road rage on some fool that has no clue how to drive, so since it is my nature then shouldn't I be allowed to do so? Or, am I capable of controlling my urges/desires? Or, do I need the assistance of some higher being at some point to control some urges? I guess many of those answers depend on if you believe Freud, or Jesus.

hawgballs
03-01-10, 11:09 AM
But furthermore, didn't that guy supposedly die for the "our" sins or for our being "born with original sin"? And considering the probability that it could be genetic and not a choice,.... Are they truly "living in sin"?


I guess that depends on whether you believe we have a choice to overcome our natural tendencies, or if we are no better than animals, and just get by on urges. I often have the animal desire to go road rage on some fool that has no clue how to drive, so since it is my nature then shouldn't I be allowed to do so? Or, am I capable of controlling my urges/desires? Or, do I need the assistance of some higher being at some point to control some urges? I guess many of those answers depend on if you believe Freud, or Jesus.
Having the tendency to be intimate with the same sex and road raging are two completely different things. Unless you can believe that this supreme being put you on Earth to not live, what to some would be, a fulfilling life. Why would such a benevolent god want someone to deprive themselves of be able to love who they love? Doesn't that seem a little backwards thinking?

This isn't an "urge" as the way you compare it to a reaction of your mood someone else's actions. Unless you consider your being married to your wife as just an "urge".

CivilWars
03-01-10, 11:10 AM
Well, to get technical however we got here, we got here with the desire/urge/natural instinct to pro-create. Last I checked same sex relations did not pro-create, so that is against the natural instinct anyway, but I digress.

Ugh, double edit for typing failure.

psychonitrous
03-01-10, 11:14 AM
Church can stay ignorant if they please. I wouldn't want to be a part of a discriminatory business like that. So, I'd take my business elsewhere...


Pretty much this...

If you gay, why would you follow a group that believes that you are evil. This seems like a black person wanting to join the KKK.

That being said, by all means protest but don't be surprised if the church decides exercise their rights and not let gays in.

For the record I am not Anti-gay, I am just stating what I think is logical.

hawgballs
03-01-10, 11:24 AM
Well, to get technical however we got here we got here with the desire/urge/natural instinct to pro-create. Last I checked same sex relations did not pro-create, so that is against the natural instinct anyway, but I digress.
How do you figure? Humans aren't unique to homosexuality.

It is natural for some to have "the desire/urge/natural instinct to procreate". What's to say about those that don't have "the desire/urge/instinct to pro-create", they are unnatural?

CivilWars
03-01-10, 11:30 AM
Well, to get technical however we got here we got here with the desire/urge/natural instinct to pro-create. Last I checked same sex relations did not pro-create, so that is against the natural instinct anyway, but I digress.
How do you figure? Humans aren't unique to homosexuality.

It is natural for some to have "the desire/urge/natural instinct to procreate". What's to say about those that don't have "the desire/urge/instinct to pro-create", they are unnatural?




I am not a scientist, a zoologist, or a psychiatrist, but I will still give it a shot. My bet is that if you take a male species of pretty much any animal, and place them with another male and a female of the same species, in MOST cases the males will fight with each other over who gets the female. That is why most cattleman have 1 bull and however many cows they want. When you add a second bull they don't try to mate, they try to kill each other to determine who gets to mate with all the females. To me that says yes, male/female sex is "natural".

Consultant
03-01-10, 11:32 AM
And here we have God's misguided fan club driving a few more people away. :3

The theological point about them not repenting from the sin of homosexuality is well taken though. But I have issues with a lot of Catholic doctrine.

As to it being a choice or not, that's a debate for another day but my church has a whole ministry focused around sexual sins run by a former lesbian who will tell you that it was 100% her choice to do so. (She still looks like P.E. teacher though)

The point about Jesus loving first and correcting second is also very valid...that's the litmus test as to whether or not a church is doing an OK job...how do they treat people who openly admit they struggle with an issue like, addiction or sexual immorality.

There are ignorant religious leaders who kick people out of churches for things like divorce...how ridiculous?!

Again...God's alleged fan club, not seeing the forest from the trees and living down in the minors with no broader perspective.

A good church should adopt a "No Perfect People Allowed" policy.

CivilWars
03-01-10, 11:38 AM
And to add to what consultant said last I checked unlike the US legal system there are no classes for sins. Homosexuality, or any other sexual sin, is not a felony, and telling lies or stealing a misdemeanor. So if the leaders of the church, or even the members, are looking down their noses at the homosexuals while still living in their own sin that is worse IMO.

Consultant
03-01-10, 11:48 AM
And to add to what consultant said last I checked unlike the US legal system there are no classes for sins. Homosexuality, or any other sexual sin, is not a felony, and telling lies or stealing a misdemeanor. So if the leaders of the church, or even the members, are looking down their noses at the homosexuals while still living in their own sin that is worse IMO.
QFT.

To paraphrase the Sgt. from Full Metal Jacket...

"God does not look down on cheaters, liars, murders or idol worshipers...here you are all equally worthless."

rock_lobster
03-01-10, 11:53 AM
The thing is, it isn't the govt pushing this stuff on the church..... These protesters are members of the church(form what I understand) and I always remember that the "church" isn't the clergy or the brick walls and the steeples, but the people that make up the congregations........


Exactly. Not entirely sure why churches (Baptist, Catholic, Christian, whatever) don't want homosexuals, murderers, prostitutes, ________ in their churches. If you read the Bible, Jesus spent most of his time with those people. Not indulging in what they were indulging in, but trying to set an example.

That being said, I think the church should be accepting of people who are homosexual, but I don't think they should be accepting of homosexuality itself. The same way they shouldn't be accepting of stealing, lying, murdering, _______, but be there to help the people who struggle with those issues.. It's a sin (in my opinion) and it's no different than helping any other individual through any other sin they may be struggling with.

rock_lobster
03-01-10, 11:56 AM
But furthermore, didn't that guy supposedly die for the "our" sins or for our being "born with original sin"? And considering the probability that it could be genetic and not a choice,.... Are they truly "living in sin"?


I guess that depends on whether you believe we have a choice to overcome our natural tendencies, or if we are no better than animals, and just get by on urges. I often have the animal desire to go road rage on some fool that has no clue how to drive, so since it is my nature then shouldn't I be allowed to do so? Or, am I capable of controlling my urges/desires? Or, do I need the assistance of some higher being at some point to control some urges? I guess many of those answers depend on if you believe Freud, or Jesus.


And this is the debate. I'm still not sold on people being born gay. However, even if they are, they still have a choice. I am a heterosexual. I can choose to have sex with a ton of women and/or I can choose NOT to have sex with a ton of women. It's a touchy subject. But I agree with civil, everyone has a choice to control your urges.

SapiensErus
03-01-10, 12:15 PM
Sexual orientation is largely dependent on certain hormone ratios during development. Androgens (testosterone, DHEA, etc) are heavily involved in this. And people who do not develop a taste for the opposite, never do; we can monitor hormone levels, brain response and even penile strain (yes they have a tool for that) and studies show that men who "chose" not to be gay, are still gay, they are just acting like they are not.

Homosexuality is seen quite often in the animal kingdom outside of humans. When a population of laboratory animals increases substantially in density, the rate of homosexuality increases.

A combination of genetic factors and environmental factors collide to create a certain hormone ratio that an organism is regulated by. This regulation includes sexual behavior and it is determined by hormone exposure very early.

It has been understood for some time by science that your sexual orientation is not a "choice" just like your eye color is not a choice, but a result of hormone exposure during developmental periods. And those hormones are genetically and environmentally controlled.

The science on this topic is abundant, I have several psychology and neurology books right in front of me that discuss this topic and there is no debate offered. Homosexuality is well studied and mostly understood. What we do not know are the specific mechanisms of context (such as population density) that causes an increase in androgen levels during these early developmental periods.


Pretend for a moment you are not, and never were, attracted to a woman, yet you take one as a wife. Is it fair to her to lie to her and pretend you are attracted to her? Is it fair to yourself? Will it be a healthy relationship? Imagine forcing yourself to spend your life pretending to be attracted to someone who you simply are not. Would that be good for a persons mind? These are not "urges."

Some people (very few) are not sexual at all: they are not attracted to anything, are they also sinners?

Even monkeys and other primates (as mean as the little bitches can get) do not cast out the homosexuals among them; they are not competition for DNA replication rights after all.

CivilWars
03-01-10, 12:27 PM
And I am sure that if you study the hormones and genes of people they have "desires" to have sexual relations with people often. Does this mean that they should? I mean, based on your analysis it is wrong to suppress what is natural. So does that mean it is ok? Or what if he/she says no? Or what if it is your wife/husband/significant other that I choose to have hormones for. Humans are a giant mix of genes, hormones, logic, reasoning, emotion, facts, fallacies, etc. If we just rely on the "urges" that are produced by our chemical reactions then we are no different than animals, but I discussed that before, and people didn't want to go there.

SapiensErus
03-01-10, 12:38 PM
And I am sure that if you study the hormones and genes of people they have "desires" to have sexual relations with people often. Does this mean that they should? I mean, based on your analysis it is wrong to suppress what is natural. So does that mean it is ok? Or what if he/she says no? Or what if it is your wife/husband/significant other that I choose to have hormones for. Humans are a giant mix of genes, hormones, logic, reasoning, emotion, facts, fallacies, etc. If we just rely on the "urges" that are produced by our chemical reactions then we are no different than animals, but I discussed that before, and people didn't want to go there.


But it is not an "urge." An "urge" is "I wanna go bang this slut in the bathroom here at the bar" or "I have an urge to eat a maple bar right now" in which case I might not do those things because of a cost benefit analysis. Carefully selecting a mate to spend the rest of your living days with is a lot more thought out than an "urge" and for some people they are simply not attracted to the opposite sex in any way.

Like I said, imagine being totally and absolutely not sexually attracted to people of the opposite sex: Why on Earth would you make a decision that detrimental to both parties involved? Societal pressure and a belief in sin or that your sexual orientation is an "urge."

By your definition in this case, any decision we make is an "urge." And because "urge" is a vague word, it is possible it means something different to you than to I.

I have an urge to go smoke a cigarette even though I quit ten years ago, I am not going to do it. I have urges to get with the student girlies who want some of that big loud TA action, but I have a vested relationship, and I don't do it. But my self identity (which your sexual orientation is a big, big part of) is not an "urge." by those definitions. I bet Civil being straight is part of your identity too, right? It is part of who you are after all.

flame
03-01-10, 01:10 PM
This has been a very civil conversation, I agree with many of the comments and opinions. "He who is with out sin cast the first stone" I do not believe a church should turn anyone away, ever. The church "has the right" to refuse them communion, I just feel they are being exclusive and not inclusive, as my interpretation of the bible leads me to believe. I personally would not turn anyone away from the house of god if they wanted to come and worship.

Consultant
03-01-10, 01:27 PM
Homosexuality is seen quite often in the animal kingdom outside of humans. When a population of laboratory animals increases substantially in density, the rate of homosexuality increases.



Ipso facto, New York City.

Consultant
03-01-10, 01:32 PM
Are there also people genetically predisposed to violence? Sure - most of them control it and channel it into healthier activities. Others nurture it into professional football careers, while others with less self control over their genetic predispositions relent and become violent criminals.

A good friend of mine growing up was the only son of a single mom. From the age of 4 he was around nothing but women, used to dress up in his mom's clothes, read her fashion mags, and she never let him play any sports...instead putting him in acting camps and art camps...anybody surprised he turned out ... un-heterosexual?

To chalk it up to genetics is too simple I think...

triggerhappy2005
03-01-10, 02:45 PM
Are there also people genetically predisposed to violence? Sure - most of them control it and channel it into healthier activities. Others nurture it into professional football careers, while others with less self control over their genetic predispositions relent and become violent criminals.

A good friend of mine growing up was the only son of a single mom. From the age of 4 he was around nothing but women, used to dress up in his mom's clothes, read her fashion mags, and she never let him play any sports...instead putting him in acting camps and art camps...anybody surprised he turned out ... un-heterosexual?

To chalk it up to genetics is too simple I think...


I find it hard to believe that something like your sexual orientation could be controlled by your environment. It must be determined by genetics.

Your story it what seems too simplistic.

Consultant
03-01-10, 03:34 PM
Are there also people genetically predisposed to violence? Sure - most of them control it and channel it into healthier activities. Others nurture it into professional football careers, while others with less self control over their genetic predispositions relent and become violent criminals.

A good friend of mine growing up was the only son of a single mom. From the age of 4 he was around nothing but women, used to dress up in his mom's clothes, read her fashion mags, and she never let him play any sports...instead putting him in acting camps and art camps...anybody surprised he turned out ... un-heterosexual?

To chalk it up to genetics is too simple I think...


I find it hard to believe that something like your sexual orientation could be controlled by your environment. It must be determined by genetics.

Your story it what seems too simplistic.
If sexual preference is genetic, why not racial preference? Position preference? I'm not racist...It's genetic, etc?

How can it NOT be at least somewhat environmental?

Soy posted not an hour ago that as population density increases in nature, homosexual activity becomes more prevalant in the animal kingdom...do the animals genetics change as a result of population? Are the genes of people in Hong Kong different than those of some rural chinese village? I doubt it, to any significant degree.

Consultant
03-01-10, 03:38 PM
And dont get it twisted...I'm the farthest thing from homophobic or a gay basher...that's high school bullshit.

CivilWars
03-01-10, 03:38 PM
Soy, my point being, and probably oversimplified, is that what most common people call urgesor desires are actually genetic and medical. So is someone fat because they are lazy and have no self control, or because their genes send chemicals through their body telling them to eat even if they dont truly need food? If we are then just reduced to whatever the chemical reactions in our body tell us to do with no logical control then doesnt that once again make us no different than animals?

Consultant
03-01-10, 03:41 PM
Self control is something many modern people are not burdened with.

SlimStumpy
03-01-10, 03:44 PM
Who sez were any different from animals.

Humans are simply the animals most proficient with missile weapons.

Watsyurdeal?
03-01-10, 03:52 PM
If gays wanna get married, let them. It won't affect your life in any way, that much I know for sure.

Potemkine
03-01-10, 03:56 PM
Interesting...most interesting indeed.

The church has every right to deny service to whomever they want as it is a private institution. I may not agree with it, but its their right. The law has no baring on this case.

My only question though, is why keep homosexuals from marrying/adopting children/filing taxes together as any heterosexual couple can do? What do you as a person have to loose by allowing others to have happiness that in no way shape or form affects you?

hawgballs
03-01-10, 03:58 PM
If sexual preference is genetic, why not racial preference? Position preference? I'm not racist...It's genetic, etc?

How can it NOT be at least somewhat environmental?Apples and oranges..... Accepting someone's color is not akin to being sexually attracted to, needless to mention yearning to spend the rest of one's life with, another of the same sex.

Blakeman
03-01-10, 03:58 PM
Interesting...most interesting indeed.

The church has every right to deny service to whomever they want as it is a private institution. I may not agree with it, but its their right. The law has no baring on this case.

My only question though, is why keep homosexuals from marrying/adopting children/filing taxes together as any heterosexual couple can do? What do you as a person have to loose by allowing others to have happiness that in no way shape or form affects you?


Back to an old discussion about homosexuals and marriage and the fact that I think they should change it in the states to say government union for everyone including heterosexuals. Many of the problems that stem from homosexuals and marriage rights comes from the very fact it is called marriage. Let marriage be the ceremony and lose the context in reference to the binding agreements the states recognize.

Consultant
03-01-10, 05:34 PM
If sexual preference is genetic, why not racial preference? Position preference? I'm not racist...It's genetic, etc?

How can it NOT be at least somewhat environmental?Apples and oranges..... Accepting someone's color is not akin to being sexually attracted to, needless to mention yearning to spend the rest of one's life with, another of the same sex.

So genetics can impact "like attracts like" as it relates to genitalia but not culture? Really?

Hell, why do so many people call it "sexual preference" if it isnt a choice, something they "prefer".

I know, I know..... "Sexual Orientation" is the better term if you are in the "its genetic" camp. But I digress - it's an academic exercise, irrelevant in the long run.

Like I said, it is irrelevant.

The political and marriage question wasn't originally in this thread but anybody who thinks that letting gay folks get married or pay their taxes together or share health benefits is a bad thing is ridiculous.

DJ Ms. White
03-01-10, 05:41 PM
Jesus loves everyone, everybody is welcome in god's house except for the gays. Because they lead a sinful life,............ ::) Isn't that why they have confession?

rofl

Toad
03-01-10, 05:53 PM
I was raised Roman Catholic, but left the church in my teens. I think that religions should be free to do what they want to a (non-criminal of course) extent. However, it makes me very nervous when they receive public funds that would otherwise go to secular charities/schools/etc and then attach strings of their religious dogma to the use of those funds. I also wish they would stop things like "abstinence as the only solution for African AIDS" and other decisions that wind up causing more harm than if they took the strategy of "Hey guys we'd like you to stop having sex but we won't actively block someone else giving you condoms, but hey here's a brochure." I love churches that are pragmatic and mix education with realism. I think that most churches accomplish that, but Catholicism does a bad job with it. Although its adherents don't necessarily agree with all of its policies, their money and head count is being used to push an agenda that is doing a lot of harm. Besides, some of those masses with the knights of columbus and all that were downright creepy. I hope I didn't offend anyone with this, just my $.02.

Also, I think that if we could just get Pope Benedict to play this http://games.adultswim.com/robot-unicorn-attack-twitchy-online-game.html then he'd see things a different way.

SlimStumpy
03-04-10, 02:52 PM
It might affect your life.

If you have gay friends and they get married, you might get invited to the reception and there would be an open bar. Free drinks are always good, no matter what.

And if you are single, and the couple getting married is male and gay, you can be sure they will have a number of attractive single women there, because gay dudes always have a lot of attractive female friends.

But because its a gay wedding, the majority of the guys in the room would also be gay, meaning you've got very little competition for that attractive single lady who's been at the open bar all night. Plus she will assume you are gay too, because you are a guy at a gay guys wedding. Therefore she will be very easy to approach as she will not feel threatened by you. Now her gay guy friends, once the liquor gets going, will be paying attention to each other, not to her, making her feel lonely. Plus, many women who hang out with gay guys secretly wish that they could turn one of the gay guys they hang out with hetro. That's insane, of course, but it will work on YOU, because you're already hetro.

It if for this reason that I believe all single males against gay marriage are somewhat less hetro than they would like us to believe. If you are a single hetro guy there are basically three ways to improve your odds - become more attractive and/or richer; kill off the other hetro guys; pick a spot where most of the competition swings the other way. The first is hard. The second is illegal.

Just make sure you check for an adams apple, you know? Don't get so drunk you forget to do that.

Rawr
03-04-10, 03:04 PM
Ahaha gay men get all the kisses, hugs, motorboats, and boob grabbing.

I like the whole wedding scenario, what a very awesome thought process you have.